Suggestions for competitions and activities

[Misj']

Well, as i said low res is easier...than high res is.

Then why can't I do low res and can I do high res? - High-res is only more difficult from a pixel-point of view. I know my background is pen and paper (or digital equivalents) which makes it a lot easier for me to work with lines (including vectors) than pixels. I honnestly don't think that my high res images are any more difficult than ProgZ's low res images (actually, to me his are far more difficult than mine).

[ThreeOhFour]

I don't recall progz ever entering a music competition.

I recall him winning one where the entrants had to make an 80s tv show theme tune.

[loominous]

I do think that lo-res is a more forgiving than hi-res if you're new to graphics, but as nobody has suggested that people should be forced to go hi-res/3D/clay/whatnot, it seems beside the point.

[Dualnames]

Well, thanks Misj and Ben for proving every point of me wrong. 8)
No harm done.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I can understand that you feel this way, as you're able to participate in all activities as you please. A clay animator/3D animator/Classical animator can't. Am I to assume that your feelings about this is along the lines of: "They're minorities, who cares about them"?

I'm not sure why you've taken the accusatorial approach with these comments.  I have nothing against artists of any preference joining in, but you also have to weigh how many of them are active on the forums and interested in participating regularly.  The fact of the matter is that a vast majority of people on these forums either dabble in or work regularly with pixel art.  Those that work in hi-res, like scotch, Ali, Andail and others are capable (and have shown the ability to) work with pixel art.  Misj's situation aside, I know a great many more people who can work backwards from hi-res to pixel art than I do people who can work forward from it with satisfactory results  -- but is any of this even relevant to the topic?  I ask this because it was you, not I, who brought up these groups being excluded, and I believe I've provided a reasonable explanation for why there probably isn't much demand on these particular forums for competitions catering to 3d modelers, claymation experts, or even classical artists.

Do I think excluding people is right?  No.  I don't think it's particularly fun to be able to do something and be excluded because it's not what other people are good at, but I also don't think a competition should be a 'boy's club' with 2-3 regular entrants and no one else.  I suppose you could still take this to mean I don't care, but I don't think most people would see it that way.

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean about my being able to enter any competitions I like.  Anyone can enter our existing competitions provided they want to follow the basic rules set by the host, and I think that's a good thing!

[Dualnames]

Speaking of being able to enter any comp you like, I have managed the difficult of entering every competition with a valid entry (whether it was good is irrelevant).

[Aljoho]

I agree with Loominous's idea - its worth a shot. As somebody said earlier if there are not enough entrants it will die, but it offers an opportunity to be creative - hell you could open it up more beyond just digital mediums and get some interesting things like lego entries or claymation or origami for people who are in to that kind of thing (I know this wasn't necessarily part of Loominous's suggestion but i think it would open it up to a wider audience which would be great).People could still use pixel art, but with 3D and hi res stuff as well. I mean just setting a theme such as 'steam punk' or 'Astrounaut' with no other restrictions and seeing what awesome and original artifacts/characters people can come up with would, i think, work well.

Aside from the miniscule amount of space it would take up on the server i cant really see any disbenefits. it would be fun and interesting to see what people can do beyond traditional pixel art. Call me a minority but I would definitely enter if i had time.

[Misj']

Well, thanks Misj and Ben for proving every point of me wrong. 8)
No harm done.

A guy's gotta have a hobby

The forums could certainly benefit from more tutorials, but more competitions?  I don't think so.

And that brings me back to my vision of workshops (which are at least partly 'interactive tutorials').

But I really don't see why urging people to think about the entire process of designing will be a barrier or alienate people, or - for that matter - create a boy's club. Who I do see it that it would force people to think about the things they do...but that will only make them better at it.

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean about my being able to enter any competitions I like.  Anyone can enter our existing competitions provided they want to follow the basic rules set by the host, and I think that's a good thing!

I've already given the example concerning colours (which are defined differently for pixel-artists and traditional artist), where my latest entry in the sprite-jam does not comply with the rules from pixel-artist's point of view. And the only way to actually comply with these rules would be by reducing the quality of my work (from my envisioned point of view).

An even clearer example is the animation-competition. I would really like to play around with my animating-skills...however, it is impossible for me to enter the animation-competition because I am character-based and not pixel/sprite based, and traditional animation (which is what I want to do) can not be done within the rules of the competition.

Now I know that including traditional animation in the sprite-jam is next to impossible unless both a pixeled sprite and a character sheet is provided and I don't see that happen without changing the entire tone of the competition itself. For the sprite-jam it is different: if the rules are stated as followed there would be no problem:
Size-limit: The character should not exceed 25% for the Y-resolution
or
Size-limit: 25% of the Y-resolution = 1.80 meters.
the size-limit would be applicable to pixel-artists, traditional-artists, and vector-artists and the only limit is one that is defined by usability in a game.

Personally I don't need another competition if the rules of the sprite-jam are medium-independent. However, I don't see that the sprite-jam will do this, nor that most participants of the sprite-jam consider it the right place. Most of them appear to consider a sprite to be build from pixels (rather than presented in pixels), and to most of them the sprite-jam seems to be analogous to pixel-art-jam. So my only conclusion could be that if the sprite-jam apparently isn't the place for this, then we should find another place to do it (preferably within the AGS community).

Ps. although I also like to see a character(-design) competition, because that is actually lacking, even though it is an extremely important aspect for adventure games.

[loominous]

ProgZmax:

Do I think excluding people is right?  No.

I don't think it's particularly fun to be able to do something and be excluded because it's not what other people are good at

Oh, I honestly didn't know that you considered it wrong. What you've said so far has indicated that you thought things were fine the way they are and didn't need to change, which made me assume that you didn't care.

That you always seem to have restrictions that exclude hi-res entries when you host added quite a bit to the surprise.

Anyway, so we're in agreement that it's wrong, so what do we do about it?

Well, so far my suggestions have been:

A: Convince the Sprite Jam hosts to either:
A1: Stop with the restrictions, which has the downside of reducing the fun for lo-res enthusiasts.
A2: Add separate or no restrictions for hi-res entries, while maintaining lo-res restriction, which would maintain the fun for lo-res enthusiasts.
Edit: A2b: Have rules along Misj's line, where the resolution is based on the height of the intended resolution.

B1: Start a new competition without lo-res restrictions. Downside being overlap with the sprite jam.
B2: Start a concept competition, which would reduce the overlap, and since everyone from lo-res to claymation folks could join in, have a huge base.

I personally like A2(either A2a or A2b) and B2 best.

How would you deal with it?

Oh, and I agree with you about 'boy's clubs', but we can't really know the level of interest, as people have never really had a proper chance of joining in, and by doing so establish a "tradition". I'm actually thinking mostly of 3D folks here. It's kinda like a radio station, where they always seem to be playing music that you dislike. It may very well be that they play your kind of music every 10th night, but it's most likely that you won't be tuned in to notice.

Edit: Added Misj's idea

[MrColossal]

Forgive me, I have not read all the posts on this topic but the way I've always seen it is the sprite jam is there for people to have fun and learn by doing.

I also see it that if someone wins a sprite jam they get to set the rules... If they want people to develop a concept first and then show the final sprite, that is their prize for winning the last comp. If they want to make it that you have to make a sprite for an isometric Diablo clone, good for them! If people don't like these rules, they don't enter.

A winner ran a comp that involved concept art, someone argued with him about the rules. If someone doesn't like the rules, they can just not enter and boycott that week. If someone else doesn't like that only low res rules are being made, win the competition and change the rules. Does that mean possibly doing low res art to win the comp the first time through? Sure, but that's the way it's set up.

I think this is very simple?

[bog]

If someone doesn't like the rules, they can just not enter and boycott that week. If someone else doesn't like that only low res rules are being made, win the competition and change the rules. Does that mean possibly doing low res art to win the comp the first time through? Sure, but that's the way it's set up.

but the way it's "set up" is being questioned here. it's just not fair. what if someone who's into hi res stuff actually wins by doing pixel art and then sets the rules to exclude pixel art? and then other hi res guys do the same thing over and over again. and the only way sprite jam could go back to "normal" would be for someone into pixel art to make hi res sprites better than the hi res people.

[loominous]

MrColossal:

The ideas presented haven't been educational activities, along the lines of the infamous 'Background Workshop'. I'm all for the casual aspect of the Sprite Jam and don't think people want theory crammed down their throat in activities like these. I've tried summarizing the actual ideas in may last post above, in case you're interested.

Anyway, from what understand, your stance is along the line:

If you're a claymation guy, first learn how to pixel well enough to win a round, which will then grant you the right to host a round, but in which you can't actually participate yourself, as you're the host. Alternatively, wait a couple of months for a round that allows hi-res entries.

I'm really surprised that nice guys such as yourself seem to advocate a system like this, when with minor modifications, far more people could join in the fun.

I realize that traditions are important and that the Sprite Jam has a history, which is why the suggestions has kept the Sprite Jam more or less completely intact.

[MrColossal]

I guess I don't see why people take this so seriously but people do so I will try.

"and the only way sprite jam could go back to "normal" would be for someone into pixel art to make hi res sprites better than the hi res people."

Maybe a problem is winners don't have much imagination when it comes to setting up sprite jams? There is nothing stopping someone who just won a "Make a sprite for the game-n-watch!" jam from starting another that challenges people to make a sprite for a high res 1024x game.

I don't know, I guess I don't care enough about the competitions to get worked up about it. I don't like most of the rules in the MAGS competition but all I can do is either enter and hope to win to make my own rules or wait for the rules to change.

loominous:

You can participate in your own sprite jams if you want. Also you can make sprites with clay that fit sprite jam rules, or you can just make a sprite following the majority of the rules and disregarding the others. No one is going to ban you for having fun and making something awesome. Maybe I'm the only mod that feels that way... Maybe next Mittens I'll be shown the 300 page rule book that CJ wrote up detailing the strict ways to run the comp forum.

The sprite jam for me, when I started it on IRC, was not about winning, we just had a "winner" so that we could vary up who chooses what to draw next. If the sprite jam is about winning for people then I bow out of the conversation because I am not in that mindset.

Also, I'm not against changing the sprite jam if the majority of people want it. Just as long as people have fun and make cool art and hopefully learn something.

[ALPHATT]

I haven't read the last few posts (except the last by MrColossal.)

But I don't see why you guys still arguing.

Competitions with canvas size and color restriction are obviously aiming for low-res peices, but anyone could host a competition with 1024x768 size limit and say 32bit sprites are welcome.

[loominous]

MrColossal:

I too can't stand the concept of 'winners' in regards to art and activities like this in general. (I don't even declare winners when I host stuff, I just point out that someone has received the most amount of votes.)

My impression is that noone in this thread actually cares about winning, and that the Sprite Jam is a relaxed activity where you have fun creating characters.

This is what makes it so odd when people such as yourself come in here and endorse a system that officially excludes so many, when with a few modifications everyone could officially participate.

Sure, you can make the point that even if everyone is not allowed to sit on the bus, they can always bike along with it. But it really isn't the same feeling, and is most likely why you rarely if ever see these kind of side entries (except for humorous non-entries or similar).

And then when you're greeted by opening lines such as: "Ahoy there, fellow pixel enthusiasts!" in a public general art activity, a line which I'm sure wasn't intentionally excluding, you kinda start feeling like a second class citizen.

I'm sure this will be interpreted as a overdramatizing of the situation, but the annoying thing is that it can so easily be fixed! And yet, people keep coming here saying that everything is fine, though they also happen to enjoy the comfort of riding the bus each time.

So my question to everyone becomes: if it doesn't matter to you, but obviously for some, why not change it so everyone's happy?

[ALPHATT]

loominous i don't quite understand why are you complaining.

First off MrColossal basicly told you that you're free to post lineart/clay/etc in a Sprite Jam. Nothing is holding you back and you won't be banned or something...

Secondly I'm concerd about the expreissons you used.

Second class citizen? I think your going a bit too far just because SpacePirateCaine told you he'd be happier to see low-res art from you.

[loominous]

loominous i don't quite understand why are you complaining.
First off MrColossal basicly told you that you're free to post lineart/clay/etc in a Sprite Jam. Nothing is holding you back and you won't be banned or something...

Thought my post made it clear, but here's another analogy that might clarify it:

Let's say you like playing soccer, not because you like winning, but because you simply enjoy it. At the start of a new season, you're told that none of your goals that year will count, but you're still allowed to play. It is explained by an administrative thing that could easily be changed, but everyone else thinks it's fine so you shouldn't complain.

Even if you're a fan of playing, I'm sure you'd feel pretty bad, not because you can't win, but because you feel like you're not being treated fairly.

-

I'm sure that one will be misinterpreted as well, and someone will probably accuse me of hating soccer, but that's the best one I could come up with at this moment.

[ALPHATT]

You say your peice wasn't accepted as a valid entry?

[loominous]

You say your peice wasn't accepted as a valid entry?

This isn't about a particular incident but about a system that everyone seems to agree isn't very fair, but for some reason feel reluctant to alter, in order to make everyone happy, even though it would be easy.

I'm not even a real victim of the system, as I like and can do pixel art. Believe it or not, but you don't have to be the victim of injustices to want to stop them.

[ALPHATT]

Well.

Having a different competition for hi-res and lo-res would be cool.

only question is. Would both stay alive?