Messages

[three]

Yes. Heroine's Quest is and has always been free. (I believe there are some copyright issues that would make it difficult if not impossible to charge for it.)

I've changed the database entry to reflect this, to avoid further confusion. So three it is...

In the AGS Awards? Yes!

That was clumsy on my part, and I should have been clearer. What I meant by "regardless of engine" was in relation to one commercial game over another, AGS or other. If I pay...checks steam...14.99 for Unavowed, I'm going to want my value for money, just as if I payed 14.99 for a game by another developer, whether said game uses a comparable engine or Unreal 5. It doesn't matter that Unavowed is an AGS game, I'm going to judge it in the commercial arena, against other commercial games. I guess it's a consumer point of view. Paying that 14.99 is going to influence my opinion of any game that I have to rate, something that doesn't enter the equation when dealing with freeware titles. That's what I was trying to get across when I said there is (to me) a fundamental difference between judging "commercial" and "freeware" games, AGS or otherwise.

In a contest about which AGS games have the best pixel-pushing and voice work? Yes!

Maybe I'm trying to emphasize "fairness" to an unobtainable degree. That's probably on me. But judging, say, a commercial game's graphics over a freeware game's graphics means, to me, ignoring the commercial game's need to be competitive in a different arena to the freeware game, one that requires a level of polish that the freeware game doesn't necessarily need to aspire to. It's less about punishing the commercial game, and more about not punishing the freeware game, at least, as I said, to me. But as I also said, maybe that's just not feasible.

I think the only fair way to judge any games is simply against the criteria of the award...

I honestly don't have a major problem with that, despite the need to note my own personal hang-ups. 

I think we should drop the topic.

Agreed.

[three]

I don't think LimpingFish is suggesting excluding commercial games from the awards, when this discussion came up in previous years, the suggestion was usually having them only applicable for a specific "Best Commercial Game" award.

This is true. I know it may come across as "old man shouts at clouds", but I've just always felt that commercial games, being in the minority, were kind of, I don't know, separate from the community AGS experience; a bunch of hobbyist developers making the kind of games they want to make, regardless of aesthetics or commercial concerns. I really do think that developing a game with the express purpose of selling it is very different to freeware development. Not that commercial developers inherently have or have had to compromise, but I'm reminded of Dave Gilbert's series of videos on the development of Emerald City Confidential, which I found always found kind of depressing. Commercial game development, beyond the act of simply making a game and then deciding to charge for it, has always struck me as a (potentially) soul-destroying enterprise, as opposed to the freedom(?) of freeware development. As I said, I'm a pessimist. I also realize that this viewpoint may come across as somewhat myopic, but...

...I digress.

There have been three non-commercial winners since 2012: Heroine's Quest...

...currently says "This is a Commercial Game" in the database. Is this in error?

In any case, if the best games are commercial, why wouldn't they deserve to win? It's the AGS Awards, not the Freeware Awards.

This, also, is true. But, it's, imho, kind of like a big-fish-small-pond situation; why shouldn't commercial games go up against other commercial games exclusively? On Steam, if an AGS adventure costs ten bucks, and a, I don't know, Pendulo or Daedalic game costs ten bucks, shouldn't they be judged accordingly, as opposed to a freeware title? What if it's commercial AGS game vs commercial AGS game? It makes no difference to the player, as they're out ten bucks regardless. Should concessions be made because of the engine involved? Likewise, should freeware developers have to go up against a game that perhaps has, I don't know, professional voice work, or professional pixel-pushing? Is it possible that a freeware developer, in a year with a Wadjet Eye release, might say "well, I'm not going to beat that"?*

This is not a community problem, just a "me" problem, and I don't really expect the majority to agree with me. But it's something I've always felt, and something I'll probably, rightly or wrongly, continue to feel.

The idea of outright removing commercial games from the awards would only reinforce the idea that AGS is not a "serious" engine, and is meant only for hobbyists. Besides, we should be celebrating the fact that more and more devs are using AGS to create commercial games that stand tall against those created in other engines.

Again, excluding them completely isn't what I wanted (at least in the larger scheme of things). It's just always made sense to me to say the AGS Awards are open to all AGS games, but commercial games should only be represented by a "Best Commercial Game" category, where commercial games can exclusively compete against each other. Most people might disagree, which is fine, but I've yet to hear an compelling argument against doing this (though I realize the irony of the fact that I may not have presented a compelling argument for doing this either!), beyond it not being a popular opinion. Maybe it might open the awards to more freeware games, or at least free up some categories usually dominated by commercial titles? (And yes, conversely, it might be argued, it might stop commercial developers from entering the awards. I never said my plan was infallible!)

Furthermore, many (most?) commercial AGS games are created by small, in many cases one-person, teams, just the same as freeware ones, and these devs have to put in a huge amount of work and effort into polishing their games to a commercial standard.

Again, this isn't about punishing commercial titles, and if my argument comes across as such then I apologize to those developers. I mean no disrespect, but, as I said, I just feel commercial development (and the practicalities/pitfalls involved) is inherently in a different realm to freeware development, regardless of any freeware titles being developed with a team or with a budget, or reaching "commercial" quality.

Regardless, all my points could be answered with a hearty "so what?", and I accept that, and this isn't a hill I'm trying to die on. I also apologize if I've derailed the conversation, as I realize that I've typed up a lot of text for a somewhat non-argument...oh well.

*Yes, such an argument could've been made against "If On a Winter's Night...", as it's of an exceptional, commercial-type quality, and I'd have hardly called for that game to be excluded, so...I don't know.

[Innovation]

While noone knows the quality or details of game code, people can acknowledge skillful use of the engine (in the lines of "well done, I wouldn't know how to do that", "creative use of the engine" etc.).

Maybe. But if we're looking to expand the audience for the awards, potentially with new community members (and we have to acknowledge the fact that some of our members are players rather than developers), I don't think we can rely on this approach. But...

If we keep it, I think I like "Technical Achievement" better than "Programming"—I think it makes it clearer what we are supposed to be judging. 

...I guess I'd be open to this. It still contains some of the pitfalls I highlighted, but I think it's less confusing than appearing to ask people to specifically judge code. It could also potentially absorb the "Innovation" award in some way.

I like the idea of opening the voting process to non-forum members, as long as there is some anti-cheating measure available (recording IPs or using cookies, or both), BUT the problem with that is that the most popular, commercial, better marketed games would be the ones to always win, whereas if the vote stays within the AGS community, the process is likely to be more neutral.

Well, if we're being honest, and excluding a handful of exceptional freeware titles, successful commercial AGS games almost certainly reach a far bigger audience; not just on Steam, but sometimes on Playstation, XBox, and Switch. And a large percentage of that audience have likely never set foot in our community, and probably know next to nothing about AGS. I'd like to think we could rely on a portion of this audience to vote in the awards, but, as a pessimist, I'd expect only bad things if we opened the voting to non-members.

At some point in the past, I argued that commercial games should be excluded entirely from the awards, as, in at least some cases, we were putting hobbyist developers up against games with might have had a budget, professional team members, and such. To be fair, there were somewhat fewer commercial games at the time. Later, I suggested excluding commercial games from all other awards, except for a single award specifically tailored to them.

My argument about the current system we have was that, imo, commercial games would always have an advantage (and looking back, since 2012, only two freeware games have won "Best Game", while ten commercial titles took home the award; this despite the fact that there are far more freeware games than commercial titles added to the database each year. In fact, for each of the last two years, only a single freeware game has made onto the "Best Game" short list), and that it made more sense to have an exclusive commercial award while keeping the "Best Game" award exclusively for non-commercial games.

Anyway...apples and oranges.

[Best Game Design]

Oh, I agree that it would probably be nigh on impossible to actually fill a jury (well, maybe not impossible, though difficult), but my comparison stands; it's a relatively small number of community members who currently decide not only the noms but the winners too. Regardless, I think we need to concentrate on two points @cat made earlier: reducing the work needed to produce/host the awards and actually getting people to engage with the process.

To the latter, as everyone is almost in agreement with, I think reducing/simplifying the categories is a definite step in the right direction.

On that note, while I agree that puzzles are (mostly) key to adventure games, "Best" could mean different things to different people. A game might have easy, straightforward puzzles, which some people might enjoy solving quickly, freeing them up to continue the story, or it may have complex, intricate puzzles, which other people might enjoy mulling over for extended periods of time. If "Best" equals "Most Intricate" or "Most Cleverly Constructed", then why not just call the award something like that? But if we're looking to move away from such granular categories, I think it makes more sense to roll puzzles in with gameplay, rather than vice-versa. It doesn't have to be called "Best Game Design", but I think a singular category is the way to go.

Also, and to be honest, I've never been a fan of "Best Programming". How is the lay person (myself included) supposed to have the knowledge to judge what is and isn't "good" programming? And, really, what is the best kind of programming? Clean, but boring, error-free code? Expert, but buggy, coding that manages miracles within the confines of AGS? A mixture of both? Again, who, except knowledgeable programmers (with access to the source-code of each nominated game) could point out one script over another as being "best"? I know it might be popular among those of the community interested in coding, but...I'd cut it, or at least roll it into something else. In fact, I'd be likely to include "Best Character" over a programming category, as (imho) it has more potential for community-wide interest.

Having said that, while we know which categories see the most votes, we don't really know why people vote certain categories over others. If programming sees a lot of votes, is it because people are really judging programming merits, or are they just voting for the game the liked playing the most? We can guess, but we can't really be sure. Which is why general, less granular, categories are probably a good way to hedge your bets. Everybody knows when they see something they like, everybody knows when they hear something the like, everybody knows when they're having fun, or enjoying a story. Not everyone can tell what good programming is, or even what a good puzzle is, though.

To break it down even further (titles not-withstanding):

Game
Freeware Game
Visual
Audio
Writing
Gameplay/Design (however we define it)

I think these are the key awards, and, though past numbers might prove me wrong, the ones most likely to pull in votes. I can see "Best Short Game" being removed, if it's not doing the numbers, even though I too quite like it. I would probably keep "Best Non-Adventure Game", though I don't think its key.

All of the remaining categories (with the exception of "Best Demo") could fairly easily be covered by one of those key categories I laid out.

With that in mind, and adding in the "Lifetime" and "Innovation" awards, I count nine categories, ten if keep "Best Short Game"...

[Best Free Game]

Here are the numbers of nominating and voting people per year.

Well, what this shows me is that fifty people (give or take ten or so) has decided both the nominees and the winners for the better part of a decade. That is a shockingly small turn out, especially if we take into account that a percentage of those numbers are also potential nominees/winners. It would probably make more sense to have a jury of judges, rather than rely on the community. At least then, you wouldn't have to worry about nominee/voter turn-out. This would, of course, probably raise it's own problems, but at least we would have a smaller pool of people to wrangle, and it would make it easier for commercial developers to disseminate game codes and whatnot. Just something to consider.

Is there anything we can do to increase participation? Should we reduce the number of categories (e.g. best graphics and best animation could be merged, best gameplay could be dropped etc.)? Any other ideas?

I've argued it before, and I think it's more likely now that ever, that less/combined categories is probably the way to go.

Just of the top of my head:

Best Free Game
Best Commercial Game
Best Game Design (combines Puzzles and Gameplay) *Might also swallow the Best Programming category
Best Writing
Best Visual Design (combines all art awards)
Best Sound Design
Best Original Music
Best Non-Adventure Game
Best Short Game
Best Programming*

The awards I'd specifically drop would be Best Demo, Best Character, and Best Voice Work. And if we were to go with a jury system, I'd introduce a single award open to the public:

Community Game of the Year

I'd agree that maybe separating the MAGGIES is a good idea. I'm also leaning towards an overhaul of the "Innovation" and "Lifetime" awards, though I haven't decided what.

Less categories, it has to be said, would also shorten the actual time it takes to "perform" the awards on the night. I'd personally shoot for ten or less.

Another streamlining idea might be to reduce the presentation of nominees on the night to a single screenshot, instead of animations and audio. It's hard enough to get some developers to add their game to the database, never mind solicit media from them for the awards show. No disrespect to those developers who do manage to do it each year, but, as cat says, it's a big enough job just preparing said media for inclusion in the awards, let alone chasing up no-shows. If we're serious about streamlining the process, while keeping the client, this is one of the first things I'd look into making more manageable.

If we were to drop the client altogether, which is a perfectly reasonable choice I might add, I'd probably go for chat Discord over IRC.

We could also produce a short, standalone awards announcement "game" for after the chat ceremony, similar in style to the awards client, but just announcing the nominees and winners, like SSH did back in the day?

I use XDM, which is available for download on github.

While it's installing, it should ask you to pick an add-on for whatever browser you're running. If it doesn't, just go into the main program (once it's installed) click Tools>Browser Monitoring, and pick the add-on for your browser. Once you've installed the add-on, it will add an icon to your browser extension toolbar. This is where you'll be notified of available files to download.

When you run the main XDM program, you can again click on Tools>Browser Monitoring, scroll down to "XDM will automatically take over downloads from browser for below file types" and add the extensions in the available window. You''l probably have to do them one at a time (add AGS extension, get .AGS file from itch, delete AGS extension, add VOX extension, get .VOX file from itch, etc.) because, in Firefox anyway, the itch page tends to hang once you start to intercept the files.

Umm...Permanent Daylight.

[.ags]

I meant to go into more detail sooner, but I've been without internet for the last few days. Anyway...

All I had to do to download the files was add ".ags", ".vox", and ".cfg" in the list of extensions the download manager is set to look for, and reload the game's itch page a few times until the DM caught the files. You may have to add them one at a time, removing the last before adding the next, as the page might hang as the DM intercepts the files.

I presume any AGS game playable on itch will work the same way.

You can also use the itch.io client, it will download all the resources for the online-only games (it works on Windows, haven't tested on other platforms but I suppose it'd be the same)

Or you could just do that. You will need a itch account, though.

For the record, install the game in the itch client, click on "Downloads", right click the game, choose "Open folder in explorer", open the ".Web" folder, grab the files needed, pop them in a folder with "acwin.exe" and "SDL2.dll", and...well, you get the idea.

Wow, even AI Elon (Ailon?) is a prick.

Anyhoo, is everybody ready to start paying to use TwiX?

[Painted Hills.ags]

Is it actually possible to download such games nonetheless? Could you download the whole wrapped package an run it locally?

If you really want to, you can download "Painted Hills.ags", "audio.vox", and "acsetup.cfg" using a download manager, stick them in a folder with the "acwin.exe" from AGS 4 Alpha (renamed to Painted Hills.exe), along with "sdl2.dll", and bobs your uncle.

EDIT: In fact, you don't even need to rename "acwin.exe", just drop it in the folder.

If you were to use pre-rendered CG, a handy way to squeeze the most out of fewer backgrounds would be to use the Panorama or Panorama3D modules to let the player "look around" a location.

Welcome, new members, and happy posting!

My frustration is that it is always asking me to select which parts of an image that contain a bicycle, a motorbike, or a staircase. And this turns out to be very difficult!

The worst one, imho, is the "pedestrian crossing" test. Eight squares or so are clearly depicting a pedestrian crossing, but do I select that extra square that happens to have a pixel or two of white paint in it? Ditto the "traffic light" test.

Also...this.

It was the same with his games: he just wanted to get them done, no matter the bad graphics or lack of polish. And there was such a rough honesty to them that you couldn't help but smile when playing.

I remember rating a bunch of his games for the rating panel, and I don't think I could ever bring myself to rate them lower than two or three cups, because, regardless of how higgledy-piggledy the artwork was, or how rough around the edges they were (and some of them where really rough), there was always a good idea lurking somewhere or a clever moment that made you sit up and pay attention.

And, like others, I was amazed at his output. On more than one occasion, I found myself thinking "Maybe if he slowed down and concentrated on one game, took his time, really polished it...", but that wasn't what his games were about. He just had all these ideas, and he wanted them out there and experienced by as many people as possible, and he had the drive to do it. That's such a great quality, and I really envied him for it.

I know some of his opinions might have perplexed a few people, and he even received a short ban over some of his "Q"-flavored posts, but I can honestly say he was a valued, and valuable, member of the community, and we will be poorer for his passing.

Here's to you, Les.

Never watched the anime, or read the manga, but I did see the live-action movies (which fans seem to hate), and I played a bunch of the video games. Like most long-running manga (imho), it seemed like another relatively simple premise stretched to brain-numbing length. Just attack the damn titan, already!

For instance, Berserk, which I really like (luckily, having spent in the region of 800 euro so far on those deluxe volumes Dark Horse puts out!) seems stupidly over-long. Still, even with the recent death of it's mangaka, Kentaro Miura, it's publisher has said it will eventually continue the series.

...

Just...stop.

Goddamn 

[Tino Casal]

More from Tino Casal, and an album that's loaded with fantastic 80's synth goodness.

Not the (inferior) Toploader cover from the dawn of the new millenium, but the mellow original by King Harvest.

And finally the melancholic Faust, from Brian de Palma's under-rated musical Phantom of the Paradise , as sung by actor Bill Finley.

Okay, maybe two.

Nice!

How about the vampire queen in LifeForce?

NSFW-ish: Smidge of areola warning...

Spoiler

[close]

I mean, underneath she looks more like this:



But still...

Unfortunately, it's only called "X.COM" because Musk, like the man-baby he is, thinks it sounds cool. He's owned that domain for a long time, and I believe he tried to have Paypal originally called "X" (or maybe it was one of the other ventures he bought his way into).

According to sources (¬¬), Twitter is now "X", pronounced "ex", (as in extreeememememe!!1) and a tweets will now be known as "X's", pronounced "exes"...as in "I've been married a few times, but all my exes hate me..."

Yeah, I remember those different aliases. Perhaps he didn't realize he could change his forum name, or perhaps he misplaced his login details and just created a new account.

Not to age-bash, but older people on Facebook, for instance, sometimes have multiple accounts, due to misplacing or forgetting login details.