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Hello, nice job on the podcast! I have a topic suggestion (perhaps it's already been covered, haven't listened to them all yet):

Trailers/teasers for adventure games - With trailers playing such an important role nowadays when it comes to presenting new games to the public, it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the challenges that point n click adventure games present, especially those that lack voice packs and exciting action.

Keep up the good work!

So, any ideas on what a game design writing activity could look like?

I'm guessing that the most appealing aspects to writers would probably be stuff like: character backgrounds, dialogues, cutscenes, or similar, so it should probably incorporate some of those.

To avoid being limited to mere framework design, I guess something like the game's first cutscene could be included, kinda like a trailer, where you'd get the taste of the general atmosphere.

So for instance, with a theme like: 'The Kite Flying Society', the activity could include:

I) Designing the world
II) Designing the main story
III) Designing the (main) characters and their backgrounds
IV) Writing the intro

As a complete novice when it comes to writing, I'm just tossing out ideas.

This activity could work as a standalone one, or be part of a general game design activity.

I'd be up for doing another one, though I ve been pondering how one could develop the idea, perhaps into a "concept workshop", possibly divided into seperate activities.

There are two directions to potentially expand it as I see it: writing and character design.


Writing

One part of game creation that this sub forum never really deals with (apart from MAGS) is coming up with interesting game settings and characters.

So instead of having one of the hosts coming up with the setting, there could be a pre-stage where people, in the same workshop spirit (focusing on the process, providing and receiving feedback), developed game concepts, and a special location (and character) within that world.

Through a voting process, one concept could be picked, which would then become the basis for the background/character part.


Character design

After the background part, or possibly simultaneously, there could be a character stage, where the goal would be to develop characters that embodies the traits specified in the script, and integrates well into the backgrounds.

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I liked the subdivision into seperate parts that the last one had, which allowed you to focus on a single aspect at a time, also giving the chance for people to write mini tutorials on the topic.

The character design part could have parts such as: Pose/skeleton, Mass/volume, Details/expression/colours.

Not sure what parts the writing stage would have though, perhaps someone with a writing background could come up with some.

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Expanding it could of course result in a bloated mess, so I'm just tossing out a few ideas to see if there would be any interest in these other aspects.

Misj:

Maybe this means that the two just really aren't compatible.

I'm not sure what precisely would be the problem. A nice sprite is after all a nice sprite, regardless of how it was created or what resolution/colour amount it has.

Whether the DOTT characters were pixeled from scratch or done through extensive sketch processes seems irrelevant when you judge the end result, which after all what matters in these activities and in the end.

I don't think exclusion is the goal, it's more to challenge the entrants.

Sure, in almost all cases, style exclusion is simply an unfortunate side effect.

And I'm fully aware that there's a fun challenge in using as few colours and pixels as possible to create something great, and none of my suggestions have aimed at removing this challenge for pixel art enthusiasts.

I think the vital thing that's missing here though is that this particular challenge, like in chip tune music, is style specific.

Regular composers don't care about the size of their files, their sole aim is to create great music, which is enough of a challenge for any genius. In the same way, for regular artists, whether they work in clay, 3d, pencil, whathaveyou, these particular challenges simply do not exist.

This leads to the current unfortunate situation, where regular artists have lo-res restrictions imposed on them, akin to regular composers being restricted by chip-tune restrictions.

Which lead to my suggestions that either: A) Keep things as they are, but have lo-res restrictions apply only to lo-res entries, or B) turn the Sprite Jam into an official pixel art activity, and start a Character Competition that allows any style, and which aim is merely to create as good characters as possible.

Just as applying 3D restrictions, such as polygon count, to pixel art entries doesn't make sense, I simply don't understand why we can't make everyone happy by having pixel art restrictions apply to pixel art entries only, which seems as natural as can be. It just baffles me.

Edit: oh, and like Misj, I'm not at all opposed to occasional general rules to shake things up, like every once in a while have gameboy restrictions, or for that matter anime "restrictions". Variation is after all fun.

Sure, you can always downsize.

Let's take the Music Competition as an example. Let's say that chip music enthusiasts were the majority there, which is kind of akin to lo-res.

In nine out of ten competitions, they'd set size restrictions of the music files to 50 kb, and restrict the quality to 8bit.

In response to complaints from regular composers about being excluded, they'd argue that it's just the hi-def preferences of these people that are stopping them from participating -- everyone can after all downsample their works, and in some cases it works really well. Upsampling on the other hand wouldn't work, so the system is fair.

The regular composers suggest that, sure, they don't mind the chip music guys enjoying separate chip limitations, but couldn't they be allowed to submit entries as well, which would make everyone happy? It's after all not a Chip Music competition, and there's no other music competition on the forums to which they can submit their work.

The chip enthusiasts respond that they're happy with the current system, so they see no need to change it.

Doesn't this strike you as at least so far from ideal, that if it can be easily changed to make everyone happy, then that would seem like the right thing to do?

Edit: Modified a sentence

ProgZmax:

The main reason why I tend to set low-res guidelines is because I personally feel that low-res is easier for a majority of people to work with and get into

On the one hand, I understand your reasoning, and if it's true that allowing hi-res entries will reduce the number of entrants, something which we don't really know, then that's a valid argument that I hadn't considered.

On the other, excluding people of a certain kind from public events so that others may be more willing to come in greater numbers is a pretty controversial notion, one that goes against the standard western values which hold the rights/integrity of the individual as something holy, and something never to be breached, even though the outcome may be beneficial to others.

I personally am quite conservative in that aspect and tend to agree with this notion, as I think that mistreating someone in order for a group to feel happier is wrong, but there are of course moral systems that see it the other way around.

Whether you're part of the "happier group", or the mistreated individual will of course influence your view in specific cases, which is worth bearing in mind.

the goal in competitions I host is to maximize the number of potential entrants while giving everyone a fairly good chance of winning.

In a perfect world everyone would join regardless of their chances of winning

So it seems like you feel that winning, or the chance of winning actually does matter to people.

This kinda tosses the idea of "the system is fine, because they can always participate, even though their entries won't be counted" out the window, no? Don't recall whether you were of that view, so it's not meant as an attack.

You [Misj] use force and urge, and many people don't like being forced or urged to do anything, that's the problem.  We're not really here to tell people how they should design their art, which seems to be a point of confusion.  The sprite jam isn't about telling people how to draw, it's about having fun!

I agree with you, and I was personally not keen about Misj's decision to have things other than the actual sprite affect the outcome.

I think the best way for to influence people is by simply creating stuff they enjoy, and then show how you personally do it. If they like it, they'll want to try it by their own will.

There is a certain irony here though, as being forced to do something is what this whole discussion is about. 9 out 10 times this is what we hi-res enthusiasts face in the Sprite Jam.

And then when you're greeted by opening lines such as: "Ahoy there, fellow pixel enthusiasts!" in a public general art activity, a line which I'm sure wasn't intentionally excluding, you kinda start feeling like a second class citizen.

I don't want to get personal because it's not my place to judge you, but honestly this seems like more a personal problem, like you've come from a very pixel-centric site like Pixellation and are projecting your annoyances here.

I think you've misinterpreted my point. If it was a pixel art competition, and particularly one at a pixel art site, then that greeting by a host would be totally expected and natural, just as at a bachelor party, the opening line "Welcome Gentlemen!" would be, but not at a board meeting with females present.

It's like if you were to attend Mittens, and there you're greeted by a big banner reading: 'Welcome European AGSers!". Most attendants at it would be europeans, so in a way it makes sense, but I bet you'd find the phrasing needlessly excluding.

And by itself, it's not a big deal, but since hi-res participants are excluded so often, all these small things build up this admittedly over dramatized sentiment. I hope this is starting to make sense without attributing mental conditions to me.

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I'm having a bit of trouble distilling your suggestions at the end of your post, but by what I can make out it, you favor  the B1. Character Competition idea (it doesn't contain any workshop elements), and modifying the animation competition to allow classical animation, sort of A1 for that competition. Or did I get any of that wrong?

Edit: fixed corrupt sentence

Edit: and slightly altered another one

[please read this]

Thanks Dudeman, it's a shame that so much space is taken up by people arguing against ideas that haven't even been proposed.

I also realize that reading all the posts in this discussion isn't very compelling, I've compiled this small list with the actual suggestions so far, so please read this before you join in the discussion:

The suggestions so far:

A) Keeping everything in the Sprite Jam and:

A1: Keep the lo-res restriction, but add seperate restrictions or remove them completely for hi-res entries, which would maintain the fun of restrictions for lo-res enthusiasts but at the same time allow everyone else to join in as well.

A1b: Have rules along Misj's line, where the resolution (and colours) are based on the intended resolution, which would make the restrictions easy to set, and allow everyone to join in (with seperate restrictions). Would make the rules less flexible though.

A2: Remove the restrictions, which has the downside of reducing the fun for lo-res enthusiasts.


B) Keeping the Sprite Jam as is or turn it into a dedicated pixel art activity and also:

B1: Start a Character Competition, without lo-res restrictions (though lo-res entries would be welcome). The downside would be an overlap with the sprite jam.

B2: Start a Concept Competition, which would be an idea centered activity with the goal of coming up with concept images of a character described by the host. As it's a matter of ideas rather than skillful rendition, a stickfigure doodle from a complete newbie could win over a masterfully crafted but less fitting entry. This activity would overlap less with the Sprite Jam, and since everyone from lo-res to claymation folks could join in, would have a huge potential base.

I think these are all the ideas so far, and any new are of course highly welcome.

You say your peice wasn't accepted as a valid entry?

This isn't about a particular incident but about a system that everyone seems to agree isn't very fair, but for some reason feel reluctant to alter, in order to make everyone happy, even though it would be easy.

I'm not even a real victim of the system, as I like and can do pixel art. Believe it or not, but you don't have to be the victim of injustices to want to stop them.

loominous i don't quite understand why are you complaining.
First off MrColossal basicly told you that you're free to post lineart/clay/etc in a Sprite Jam. Nothing is holding you back and you won't be banned or something...

Thought my post made it clear, but here's another analogy that might clarify it:

Let's say you like playing soccer, not because you like winning, but because you simply enjoy it. At the start of a new season, you're told that none of your goals that year will count, but you're still allowed to play. It is explained by an administrative thing that could easily be changed, but everyone else thinks it's fine so you shouldn't complain.

Even if you're a fan of playing, I'm sure you'd feel pretty bad, not because you can't win, but because you feel like you're not being treated fairly.

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I'm sure that one will be misinterpreted as well, and someone will probably accuse me of hating soccer, but that's the best one I could come up with at this moment.

MrColossal:

I too can't stand the concept of 'winners' in regards to art and activities like this in general. (I don't even declare winners when I host stuff, I just point out that someone has received the most amount of votes.)

My impression is that noone in this thread actually cares about winning, and that the Sprite Jam is a relaxed activity where you have fun creating characters.

This is what makes it so odd when people such as yourself come in here and endorse a system that officially excludes so many, when with a few modifications everyone could officially participate.

Sure, you can make the point that even if everyone is not allowed to sit on the bus, they can always bike along with it. But it really isn't the same feeling, and is most likely why you rarely if ever see these kind of side entries (except for humorous non-entries or similar).

And then when you're greeted by opening lines such as: "Ahoy there, fellow pixel enthusiasts!" in a public general art activity, a line which I'm sure wasn't intentionally excluding, you kinda start feeling like a second class citizen.

I'm sure this will be interpreted as a overdramatizing of the situation, but the annoying thing is that it can so easily be fixed! And yet, people keep coming here saying that everything is fine, though they also happen to enjoy the comfort of riding the bus each time.

So my question to everyone becomes: if it doesn't matter to you, but obviously for some, why not change it so everyone's happy?

MrColossal:

The ideas presented haven't been educational activities, along the lines of the infamous 'Background Workshop'. I'm all for the casual aspect of the Sprite Jam and don't think people want theory crammed down their throat in activities like these. I've tried summarizing the actual ideas in may last post above, in case you're interested.

Anyway, from what understand, your stance is along the line:

If you're a claymation guy, first learn how to pixel well enough to win a round, which will then grant you the right to host a round, but in which you can't actually participate yourself, as you're the host. Alternatively, wait a couple of months for a round that allows hi-res entries.

I'm really surprised that nice guys such as yourself seem to advocate a system like this, when with minor modifications, far more people could join in the fun.

I realize that traditions are important and that the Sprite Jam has a history, which is why the suggestions has kept the Sprite Jam more or less completely intact.

ProgZmax:

Do I think excluding people is right?  No.

I don't think it's particularly fun to be able to do something and be excluded because it's not what other people are good at

Oh, I honestly didn't know that you considered it wrong. What you've said so far has indicated that you thought things were fine the way they are and didn't need to change, which made me assume that you didn't care.

That you always seem to have restrictions that exclude hi-res entries when you host added quite a bit to the surprise.

Anyway, so we're in agreement that it's wrong, so what do we do about it?

Well, so far my suggestions have been:

A: Convince the Sprite Jam hosts to either:
A1: Stop with the restrictions, which has the downside of reducing the fun for lo-res enthusiasts.
A2: Add separate or no restrictions for hi-res entries, while maintaining lo-res restriction, which would maintain the fun for lo-res enthusiasts.
Edit: A2b: Have rules along Misj's line, where the resolution is based on the height of the intended resolution.

B1: Start a new competition without lo-res restrictions. Downside being overlap with the sprite jam.
B2: Start a concept competition, which would reduce the overlap, and since everyone from lo-res to claymation folks could join in, have a huge base.

I personally like A2(either A2a or A2b) and B2 best.

How would you deal with it?

Oh, and I agree with you about 'boy's clubs', but we can't really know the level of interest, as people have never really had a proper chance of joining in, and by doing so establish a "tradition". I'm actually thinking mostly of 3D folks here. It's kinda like a radio station, where they always seem to be playing music that you dislike. It may very well be that they play your kind of music every 10th night, but it's most likely that you won't be tuned in to notice.

Edit: Added Misj's idea

I do think that lo-res is a more forgiving than hi-res if you're new to graphics, but as nobody has suggested that people should be forced to go hi-res/3D/clay/whatnot, it seems beside the point.

ProgZmax:

Not sure what idea you're arguing against here. The first proposal was simply to create a general sprite competition where everyone would be allowed to join, and turn the sprite jam into an official pixel art activity for lo-res enthusiasts to enjoy. The second was for a Concept Competition.

You seem to have the impression that I was proposing a Character 'Workshop' as a regular activity, which I'm not sure where you got from.

The Concept Competition, which SpacePirateCaine suggested, would be about concept design, which is basically about capturing a specified character/vehicle/else in everything from an extremely simple doodle to elaborate artwork, and is used for everything from lo-res to 3D.

As it's all about ideas and design and not skillful rendering, basically a complete newbie could come up with a stick figure drawing which would "win".

So it's really an idea competition, rather than a drawing/painting competition (though I really prefer the word 'activity' for all these).

This would allow anyone to join regardless of skill level, and since it's such a vital part of any type of character creation process, it seems like it would strongly belong in a game forum.

The forums could certainly benefit from more tutorials, but more competitions?  I don't think so.

I can understand that you feel this way, as you're able to participate in all activities as you please. A clay animator/3D animator/Classical animator can't. Am I to assume that your feelings about this is along the lines of: "They're minorities, who cares about them"?

SpacePirateCain:

Sounds like a neat idea, and like you said, would lessen the overlap, so that people attending the Sprite Jam might actually contribute to both, giving it a potentially very large base.

Would be great if a less controversial figure, such as yourself, would organize it.

Edit: Just realized that another benefit over the Character Competition would be that it could also deal with stuff like vehicle design, which is really fun and would provide variation.

I remember proposing something along those lines a while ago, that you'd have separate restrictions to accommodate both traditional and pixel art, as colour amount do mean different things when you're talking about different media.

So the host could set pixel art restrictions a la: 40x40, 12 colours, and then traditional restrictions, for instance: 12 colours, which would means 12 colours + anti aliasing shades.

This would allow everyone to participate, with restrictions intact. Thought it was a nice compromise, but I don't recall the response.

This bickering is totally spoiling my impression and experience of the AGS forums.

Oh, this idea was put forth with the intention of actually ending this argument. I totally agree that it spoils the mood, and is bringing out really ugly sides of this community. So I thought this would be a nice compromise, where pixel enthusiasts can enjoy limitations, while allowing everyone to participate in a character competition.

I really thought this was a question about unreflectively following traditions, which you can't blame people for, which is why I've tried to appealed to the participants to break with it.

It turns out people really don't care how hi-res enthusiasts are treated, so here I tried appealing to the objectivity of the moderators, who are supposed to have the good of the entire community in mind.

However there is no doubt we are biased with low res, and this is no surprise since that the majorty of adventure games are in low res.

Sure, and I don't of course blame people for their preferences and hope that the pixel community prospers in this day and age.

The curious thing is how you go from "I like lo-res" to "let's not allow anything that's not lo-res". This would make total sense if you wanted to shake things up - kinda like throwing a costume party every once in a while - but as the majority is already using lo-res, why would you to deliberately exclude hi-res entries? I prefer hi-res myself, but why on earth would I want to exclude lo-res?

Somebody's now going: 'yea, yea, but it's the right of the host'. Sure, it's within the rights of the host, but even if it was within the rights of a public bar owner to ban black people simply because he prefers whites, he would still be a immoral jerk for doing so. Just because something is within your rights doesn't make it moral.

Secondly, and to adress:

I disagree the suggestion to make another extra competition, unless it can be proven to be vastly popular.

We don't actually know how many hi-res people are out there as they're rarely allowed to participate. The sprite jam is by all measures a pixel activity, so just like myself, people might not even bother checking whether they can submit a regular entry. To make sure I wasn't basing this on a false impression, I checked the introduction of the last 50 pixel jams to check with reality:

50 rounds - 6 allowed hi-res/hi-colour entries.

The Sprite Jam is for all intents and purposes a pixel art activity; I'm just asking for a character activity where everyone is allowed to join the fun.

You don't see the catch 22 in this system? Seriously?

The bottom line is, whether an entry qualifies as a sprite for the expected purpose of the round, so it doesn't rule out any possibilities of character art.

I don't understand this line, perhaps you could rephrase it?

And it seems like you have misinterpreted the point of the Character Competition: the aim would be to create sprites, and not concept art involving characters.